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LANGUAGES AND TOOLS BOOKS

Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Gary Cornell. By McGraw-Hill Osborne Media. The regular list price is $49.99. Sells new for $7.77. There are some available for $0.90.
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5 comments about Visual Basic 6 from the Ground Up.
  1. This isn't a bad beginners book. Anyone who needs more 'basic' information than this book probably shouldn't be in the IT industry in the first place.

    The book has alot of typos, i.e. missing parantheses in code examples, missing function arguments etc. I've found it to be somewhat troublesome, but you should be able to go to msdn online to figure out the typo. For example on page 487 the move method requires 4 arguments when anyone of the optional 3 are there but he only includes 2. There is also a missing parantheses there as well.

    This book does not go into ADO in any kind of depth that is needed. The Murach book, 'VB6 beginner to database pro' does ADO much better. There does seem to be a complete lack of ADO books for VB6. I imagine there are alot for VB.net. If you want this book, you will need another book to learn ADO programming in VB6. Database manipulation is what many people use VB for. However this lack of ADO depth may be because the book went to press before MS finalized ADO (just a guess there).

    Don't get me wrong, I thought this book was very informative and helpful, the fact that ADO is not covered in depth is a definite drawback. Also the code examples don't include every example from the book, just the complete programs. There were many code snippets that you could put in blank vb6 project to illustrate something that were not in the downloadable code from osborne. I would have preferred a CD to downloading as well.

    8/20/2003 - I hadn't realized this before becuse the book does not cover it at all, but there is a complete lack of coverage of interface classes. I had to go to a new riders book MCSD TRAINING GUIDE: VISUAL BASIC 6 EXAMS for a good discussion of this. Even the mspress book is somewhat confusing on this topic. If you can get this book used than do that. Don't pay full price though, especially since the binding seems to come apart after alot of use.



  2. I should like to point out that the comment above regarding typos is not correct. True the example is missing a parenthesis (which the reviewer misspelled), however the move method DOES NOT require 4 arguments when anyone of the optional 3 are there. The arguments are left, top, width and height. You must specify all arguments that appear in the syntax before the argument you want to specify. For example, you can't specify width without specifying left and top. Any trailing arguments that are unspecified remain unchanged.


  3. Two cents from a rank amateur/beginning programmer. At the moment, I'm on page 179 of this book and the main problem I have so far is with the way the information is communicated. Personally, I now know that I should have picked up a book that taught VB concepts via small projects and tasks. A "in chapter 1 we'll build a simple tool to get familiar w/ the IDE. In chapter 2 we'll improve our skillset by building a slightly advanced tool to learn about declaring variables, etc." approach would work better for me. Unfortunately, this book doesn't really do that. The concepts here are explained mostly with bits of standalone code. Hopefully, perhaps by page 200, we'll commence with some "learning by doing." Yes, hopefully. In the meantime, I'll grit my teeth and continue with the book, but right now it simply isn't working for me.


  4. Perhaps this book would prove useful to an experienced programmer, but for a novice it is not a good choice. Cornell "assumes no previous programming experience", then goes on to write in huge, sweeping generalities without adequate explanations. Also, the code in the book is often written so the reader cannot fathom the type of event the code is associated with, and no explanations are forthcoming in the body of the text.
    There really is a lot covered in this book, but unless you do indeed have "previous programming experience", not worth the cash.


  5. I bought this book in Year 11 (2000), after reading reviews of it. I was a beginner to programming - not only did this book introduce me to programming, it goes into VB6 in detail. The examples are all useful - not just toy examples. I have created many useful VB6 projects - this is the ONLY VB6 book you need.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Hanaan Rosenthal. By Apress. The regular list price is $59.99. Sells new for $19.11. There are some available for $19.12.
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3 comments about AppleScript: The Comprehensive Guide to Scripting and Automation on Mac OS X, Second Edition.
  1. Tue 4/24/2007 3:27 pm. I haven't finished the book but, for instance, there were two wrong captions in the first 32 pages. Numerous other errors in the text. I feel Rosenthal gives a good feel for how AppleScript works, not sugar-coated, and I didn't have much trouble with the errors, but someone new to programming might (I am a programmer without AppleScript -- or Apple for that matter -- experience).


  2. Bought this book after having read the reviews for the first edition and have finally finished it after having given up a number of times in exasperation at the vast amount of errors in the text and the code (both in the book and downloadable). The author no doubt knows his subject and covers what you need to know to become proficient in AppleScript, but I am not sure who this book is aimed at. It is not suitable for anyone new to programming as concepts are introduced early but only explained later on in the text, the mistakes in the examples create confusion (AppleScript even being referred to as ActionScript), and the inane Dummies style humour and prose with "cool" and even "ultracool" examples insulting to the mature reader. To add to my dissatisfaction the binding started to fall apart after only 250 pages. This is both the first and last Apress book that will be in my library.

    During my way through this I bought both Danny Goodman's book from SpiderWorks and Matt Neuberg's "Definitive Guide". My recommendation to anyone else looking to learn AppleScript would be to start with Goodman, and if you know a programming language to go straight to Neuberg. Both highly recommended.


  3. It looks somewhat like a tome, but leaves nothing out. Other books slightly miss the point, assuming too much. If you really need to get a deep understanding of Applescript then this is the book for you!


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Joyce Farrell. By Course Technology. The regular list price is $111.95. Sells new for $58.43. There are some available for $61.36.
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1 comments about An Object-Oriented Approach to Programming Logic and Design, Second Edition.
  1. This author is imprecise in her use of terminology. She switches between similar terms for the same thing without signaling. She uses the same term for different things without signaling. She even uses incorrect terms.

    The author tends to use a concept in a discussion and then, later, she introduces the concept formally to the reader. Sometimes she never introduces the concept, and youstruggle with the text before you realize that a new concept is involved and you must set about untangling the spaghetti on your own.

    On a positive note, the author makes good use of analogies to illustrate abstract programming concepts. Overall, however, this text is a monument to mediocrity.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by John Martin. By McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math. Sells new for $123.75. There are some available for $115.48.
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5 comments about Introduction to Languages and the Theory of Computation.
  1. I normally don't write reviews. Couple of not very positive reviews could not stop me writing one for this title. In my opinion, this book really presents a breadth of information
    on the subject. If one is considering to buy this book, one should have due background in Discrete Mathematics.


  2. During the course this book has been anything but helpful. The introductory part is a laugh as it takes for given you as a reader is very deep into mathematical lingo and proofs. Indeed the poofs are some of the worst written, many of them using statements as "Clearly it is..." and "It is now easy to see...", well, no, it isn't easy and mostly seems like a shortcut from the author to excuse himself from actual explanations.

    Even worse is the examples where solutions reference something form an excercise, here's a hint to Mr Martin, students don't solve all the extremly many excercises unless asked to, so saying something will be clear after a certain excercise doesn't work, how will we ever know if we're right or wrong?

    The educational value is very low due to the authors way of writing, never really getting the point across and always assuming the reader knows exactly what's going on. This is certainly not the way to teach people rather complex things. All in all anyone should look elsewhere to have a chance.



  3. As far as basic ideas of automata goes, this book will do. It's not phenomenal, and it's not awful. It is merely sufficient. The main problem is that it lacks elegance in a number of places. In many places, it feels sloppy. Definitions are almost arbitrary, and often lack rigor. Techniques are long, tedious, and not very interesting. (This is nowhere more evident that the finite automaton -> regular expression conversion from Ch. 4, which has a really neat solution that this book does NOT give.) Yet, despite all this, it conveys the important ideas nevertheless.

    As far as developing skills for more advanced concepts of theory of computation, things don't look so good. This book's approach can be described as attempting, by sheer force, to make automata problems fit into rather vanilla proof techniques that readers will probably have already learned. The result is likely to do little more than convince readers that the subject is hard.


  4. i am currently part of an online course, there is no teacher and all we have to learn from besides this text (which was assigned) is maybe 2 or 3 examples posted on a website for each chapter - almost all of which are entirely too simple to offer any real help. if you have to teach yourself this course this is definitely NOT a good book.
    ..
    -there are no solutions to the problems
    -the writing is not on an introductory level &
    -the questions escalate in difficulty way too fast from the examples
    -the examples are circular
    -the examples actually say "at this point its obvious that"
    -the examples offer little to no help for complicated problems like any of the one's we get on homeworks & tests
    ..
    i think the worst part of this book is the fact that generally after i do a problem i look back just to check if i got the right answer .. since i can't do this i have no real security of whether or not i'm doing anything right. then when i look back through the chapter when i need help i realize that the examples skip the steps that i need and the writing frustrates me more than it teaches me.
    ..
    it's kinda like trying to learn calculus and the very first problem you ever see asks you to prove green's theorem.


  5. The material covered in this book, if you expected to prove what you are doing is correct, is challenging. There were several times in this book, where the explanation from the book was not enough for me to grasp the concept. I am not talking about cramming for the test, I am talking about repeatedly reviewing the concept in the book over several days before giving up and going for extra help.

    This is surprising, not because of my shear genius, but because the concepts in the book are not all that hard to grasp after the fact. For this reason, I think the book could be better written, by either including examples of more of the concepts or clearer language explaining the concepts.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Jason Cranford Teague. By Peachpit Press. The regular list price is $29.99. Sells new for $11.50. There are some available for $11.85.
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5 comments about CSS, DHTML, and Ajax, Fourth Edition (Visual QuickStart Guide).
  1. I was looking for a book to get better acquainted with CSS and Ajax. I picked up "Visual Quick start Guide. CSS, DHTML & Ajax." From Peachpit Press. The book is a quick read and it efficiently provides a quick start guide as promised. I particularly liked the example based introductions for all topics covered. Also, I enjoyed the brief introduction the book provides on Web 2.0 and the way the authors define it.
    After going through it once you will probably keep it as a quick reference guide, although it is never too hard to find information on web technologies on the web. Overall I could recommend the book if you are not a client side developer and are in need of a brief and comprehensive look at CSS and DHTML. I cannot imagine client side developers being too impressed with the book though.


  2. I looked through this book at a bookstore before buying and I was impressed with the idea of working through with visual examples about what could be done with different manipulations of code (something that is hard to quickly get on the web with many many clicks).

    In using this guide, I have though become frequently exasperated by the execution because of confusing examples, what I believe to be mistakes in the code examples in the text, etc...


  3. A great book for beginners as well as a good reference tool for programmers as well. I bought this book for my 14 year old son who used it to teach himself. He said it was well laid out and has used it quite often.


  4. This is a great book for learning CSS, DHTML & AJAX. I needed something quick to pick up this language and the book worked perfect.


  5. While this book (Fourth Edition) appears to be another quality release from Peachpit, it is unfortunately plagued by typos (rather unusual for this publisher). Code simply will not run properly due to occasional errors (often replicated in both the inline code and the illustrative tables/diagrams) and filenames are frequently incorrect. In addition, the auxillary red spot color is a nice visual break from the typical black text at first but isn't always implemented properly and eventually feels distracting. However, the major concepts and methods are addressed and presented well in the text.

    Overall, probably not the best book to start off with from unless you also enjoy debugging the author's code as you go along. I'd wait until a 5th edition corrects all the typographical errors.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Thiru. By Wrox. The regular list price is $39.99. Sells new for $2.65. There are some available for $2.45.
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5 comments about Professional ASP.NET 2.0 XML (Programmer to Programmer).
  1. I would recommend this book to anyone working on ASP.NET 2.0. XML is the integral part of .NET framework and used widely on all projects.
    Book explains XML classes, Data Validation, XML transformation, XML and ADO.NET, Web Services and use of XML in Web.Config and Configuration files.


  2. This book was very useful. It covered a wide variety of topics and explained most topics very well. I would have liked the book to get into some more subjects a little more in depth, but when you are covering so many topics that is a little difficult to do. This book did cover a lot of the new XML classes in the 2.0 framework. I would have liked some more info on the sql server 2005 xml stuff, particulary xquery. The book talked about OPENXML and even made the statement that you should use .nodes for these types of queries now. But it made no mention of how to do so. Overall, this was a very useful text.


  3. This is an excellent book covering the XML features of ASP.NET. It is very professional but, not for any beginner. It has the first 2 chapters which pretty much cover the basics but, throughout the rest of the book you need to know what you are doing. It is very detailed but is not really "step-by-step" like 1-2-3...It will walk you through how to do something through reading; so if your not one of those people who don't like to read, I wouldnt fully recommend this book to you. It shows a many screenshots in there so it makes it fairly simple to follow along. The book has almost 500 pages that are completely dedicated to the XML features of ASP.NET. If you are willing to take out the reading glasses and read a little bit. Overall, its an outstanding book!


  4. Thiru Thangarathinam is one of the few authors out there who truly know how to teach and convey the knowledge they are presenting. The manner in which he approaches and expounds a topic should be formulated and used in all books. Most books these days simply show how to do the simplest of tasks and never provide real world scenarios. But guess what, in the real world your tasks are never that simple.

    Thiru does a great job in not only showing "how to" but also provides best practice tips so that you know "when to", "when not to", "when you do be sure to". These are the things I need to know in the real world. Without a doubt this was one of the best technical books I have read in a while. I will definitely buy any future books that he authors. Glad to see he's a fellow Phoenician also!


  5. This is an excelent book. The section about MsSQL server and XML is excelent. I highly recommended


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Michi Henning and Steve Vinoski. By Addison-Wesley Professional. The regular list price is $74.99. Sells new for $34.90. There are some available for $7.86.
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5 comments about Advanced CORBA(R) Programming with C++ (Addison-Wesley Professional Computing Series).
  1. Don't wish to wade through book after book? This book would be the one to buy! The concepts are clearly defined and the code examples are fairly easy to follow. (The thermostat example grows too complicated at the end of the book to even comprehend all pieces - authors could use other smaller constructs to show the concepts.)

    The authors are well-versed in the topic and it shows in every chapter. There is no hand-waving on topics, as I have seen in other treatments of this subject.

    I've been a Corba programmer for the last 3 years and this has been my bible...

    Can't wait to see a second edition of this book from the authors!



  2. Good book. Worth the money. There is a a lot of material here and it is pretty well organized. Some of the examples assume to much - they would be better if they showed complete code segements. If you needed to get one book on C++ and CORBA, this would be the one.


  3. As the title states this is a book for advanced programmers. Not the kind of book I would recommend to someone looking to pick up a book and the learn from it. Might serve as an excellent reference source.


  4. For my money, this book is worth every cent and more. The authors are knowledgable and articulate. If you know of a
    better book on CORBA, please let me know.....


  5. This has to be one of the best CORBA books that I have read. It has helped me debug code and fix some really knotty problems. I found the exposition clear and easy to follow, and the index a useful tool. I don't think the authors intended it to be read cover-to-cover.

    If I am working on a CORBA project I alway like to have this book to hand.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Andrew Davison. By Apress. The regular list price is $54.99. Sells new for $40.96. There are some available for $35.16.
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2 comments about Pro Java 6 3D Game Development: Java 3D, JOGL, JInput and JOAL APIs (Expert's Voice in Java).
  1. There is some overlap between this book and the author's other book on Java game programming, "Killer Game Programming in Java", but overall there is enough new material to make it a worthwhile purchase. The author starts out trying to explain Java3D. His explanations are OK, but the best explanation I have ever found as an overview of the API is "Java 3D API Tutorial" on the Sun Microsystems website. It's old, but the basics haven't changed. For the specifics of working with Java 3D in the modern era, come back to this book. The author has done a good job of putting together some programming examples that show how to program in current versions of Java 3D including a 3D version of Conway's game of life. He then modifies the program to show off some of the features of Java 6 such as its ability to communicate with scripting languages. Further chapters show how to build creatures with operational limbs that demonstrate Java 3D's TransformGroups, how to handle physics and Java3D using a specific physics API, multitexturing for more natural looking outdoor scenes, and finally how to deal with level of detail problems using mixed mode rendering. In each case, the author just doesn't talk about how to do something, he produces working code that gets the job done and provides a blueprint for the reader to go further.

    The section on non-standard input devices deals with interfacing devices such as webcams, game controllers, game pads, and the P5 Virtual Reality Glove to your 3D worlds and games. He mentions parts of Java that are seldom well-explained such as JInput to describe how to control these devices. In the section on webcams, the author talks about JMF and an alternative method of interfacing to cameras. This is good, since for all intents and purposes JMF is really a dead API with very little useful capability. One of the more interesting chapters in this section really has nothing to do with input devices, that being the chapter on JOAL, which is a wrapper around OpenAL, the OpenAudio Library. This is very practical since there are bugs in Java 3D's sound interface that have been there from the beginning and show no sign of being resolved. This chapter provides a practical way for Java programmers to get actual reliable 3D sound into their games and applications.

    The final section of the book is on JOGL, which is a Java wrapper for the OpenGL graphics library. The author explains and illustrates the use of JOGL by first implementing a very simple application to clearly illustrate all of the steps needed. Next, a 3D world is written using JOGL that includes a floor with a checkerboard pattern, an orbiting earth, a skybox of stars, a billboard that shows a tree, overlays, and keyboard navigation.

    This book, along with the Sun tutorial, is a good education in how to use the Java 3D API in general, and also how to build virtual worlds in Java as well as how to write 3D Java games, which was the book's original purpose. Highly recommended.


  2. If you are new to 3D programming in Java then this book is not a very good place to start. That's not to say this isn't a good book its just that you will need to be somewhat comfortable with Java3D before reading this book. Like the previous reviewer said the sun tutorials will help to understanding the examples used in this book, just don't think that this book will hold your hand.


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by Terry Felke-Morris. By Addison Wesley. The regular list price is $73.20. Sells new for $23.00. There are some available for $11.85.
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5 comments about Web Development & Design Foundations With XHTML (3rd Edition).
  1. It was greate doing business with you. I received the book as you promised. Thanks, Nader


  2. Ive taken the online course of this class and while over all the book is very imformative, there are several HTML errors every now and then which for me really has no excuse as this is the 3rd edition. The author DOES correct these errors on a website she maintains, but as this is a text book for a subject that requires exacting work, it can be quite a hinder to the learning process when the students are forced to check the professors own work when the coding does not work for them even after following the example to the letter. I highly recomend this product none the less, but you may want to have a friend on hand to double check the text if you are experiencing a problem with no reason.


  3. The errors in this text annoyed me to the point of wanting to drop my course. I took this class online so it was difficult to get feedback from professor. The case studies were helpful, and despite it all I have learned a couple of things about web development.


  4. Comments from reviewers of this book:

    "The layout of Felke-Morris's text is excellent. I have always
    disliked texts with crowded pages, distracting sidebars, and many colors. Felke-Morris' text focuses the student on salient content and uses color, text boxes, and the like to enhance and emphasize, rather than distract. Felke-Morris' hands-on exercises are something my current text does not even have. I really like these exercises because they give students a chance to learn and practice small chunks of material before applying the knowledge to a larger project."

    "Great coverage of web accessibility standards! Glad to see a tutorial on File Management. Many students coming into this course struggle with those
    concepts."

    "Great inclusion of ethical issues and accessibility tips (these are areas that I do find myself supplementing with our current text)."

    "Superior aspects of Felke-Morris include:
    --Inclusion of web site pages and/or addresses that have been referred
    to in the text as either examples of techniques, or places to find more information, or used as a part of the end-of-chapter section on Web Research. These are a real strong point of the text.
    --Use of the same four example sites through the text as end-of-chapter Cases. As each chapter is completed, each site is enhanced using the current chapter's skills and concepts.
    --The inclusion of Hands-On Practice and Web Research sections."


  5. Web Development & Design Foundations With XHTML (3rd Edition)
    I used this text for a college Web design class. The lessons were easy to follow and laid out in a logical sequence. The case studies that are built upon as new material is learned are useful. I appreciate the attention paid to accessibility issues. I do have two major complaints though. First: There are far too many errors for a third edition, as noted by others. A great deal of study time is wasted before a student realizes that the text is wrong. Coding solutions provided by the publisher in the "Student Data Files" don't always validate, for example, and there are several mistakes not yet updated in the "erata" sections on the publisher's web site. Second: the extensive "Hands On Exercises" at the end of each chapter are less than helpful at the college level without at least some sample solutions. College instructors don't usually waste time on going over this type of material, so it's often a waste of time doing them. Suggestions for the publisher: Fewer "Hands On" exercises, more solutions and please fix all those text errors you've been hearing so much about!


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Posted in Languages and Tools (Saturday, October 11, 2008)

Written by David Makofske and Michael J. Donahoo and Kenneth L. Calvert. By Morgan Kaufmann. The regular list price is $24.95. Sells new for $19.79. There are some available for $16.89.
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5 comments about TCP/IP Sockets in C#: Practical Guide for Programmers (The Practical Guides).
  1. I've read through the first couple of chapters and I must say this is a good book. The thing I like most about this book is that the authors take time to not only give you working code but explain what the heck blocks within the programs do. If you are a novice programmer you may want to pick up a different book because it does assume you have a good understanding of basic C# programming.


  2. Did you ever just want a book get to the point and tell you what you need to know? This is that book. If your new to winsock, this book will get you rolling quickly.


  3. I think this book is very good because es simple, explain clearly and go directly to the matter.

    Juan Ramon Divison


  4. This book is a good intermediate to somewhat advanced book on TCP and UDP protocols using Sockets in .Net - all examples of-course as the title suggests are in C#. It does show some interesting examples and was able to get me started using Sockets in .Net - however it didn't go as far as I had hoped. But if you're needing something to show you how to start using Sockets it is a very good book.


  5. This book gets very high ratings on both amazon.co.uk and amazon.com. I've given it a slightly lower rating than some, although still four stars, and will explain why...

    The subtitle on the cover of the book is "Practical Guide for Programmers" which suggests it is going to be good even for experienced developers. It is only when you read the preface (page X) that you find that the book is aimed "primarily at students", and even then is "intended as a supplement, to be used with a traditional textbook", which seems a bit of a contradiction when it then says that "we have tried to make the book reasonably self-contained".

    Anyway, what are the good points of this book? Well, it does mention most of the bits that a developer using sockets will want to consider. It has everything from blocking sockets, through non-blocking sockets and the select model, through to overlapped I/O. It also mentions threading, the use of thread pools, broadcast and multicast. All good stuff. Even includes example code for each.

    Where the book falls down is that having skimmed over all of those topics it (a) doesn't provide adequate information about how to choose the model (synch vs. asynch, blocking vs. non-blocking, 1 thread vs. fixed number (> 1) of threads vs. thread pool, etc) to use for a particular project, and (b) falls short of being self-contained, doing the blah-blah is beyond the scope of this book thing.

    I have seen many projects developed using the wrong model, resulting in poor performance, lack of responsiveness, inability to shutdown cleanly etc. I'm pretty sure that the authors of the book will have seen projects like that too. Books about using sockets really need to advise on this area.

    It is understandable that a book of this size and price will say that some things are outside the scope of the book, but not something as basic as socket options (p52 refers the reader to the MSDN). Again, socket options are an area where well-meaning developers or support staff set values that are little better than guesses, and which sometimes cause adverse effects. If there's going to be a second edition of this book, please include advice on such matters.

    So, all in all, good for students or people new to sockets, but not quite great. It tells you the basic techniques, but not how to use them to best advantage. Having said that, I prefer this book to C# Network Programming which rambles, uses language that is ambiguous in places, and contains a significant error (if being very generous, it could be very lazy English causing an unintended meaning) on the very page I opened it on.

    It's probably best for people who already know sockets really well, but who are switching from one language to another (e.g. C++ or Java to C#). Those people probably know what model and options to use, just need to see how to do it in C# - something the book does do well.


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Visual Basic 6 from the Ground Up
AppleScript: The Comprehensive Guide to Scripting and Automation on Mac OS X, Second Edition
An Object-Oriented Approach to Programming Logic and Design, Second Edition
Introduction to Languages and the Theory of Computation
CSS, DHTML, and Ajax, Fourth Edition (Visual QuickStart Guide)
Professional ASP.NET 2.0 XML (Programmer to Programmer)
Advanced CORBA(R) Programming with C++ (Addison-Wesley Professional Computing Series)
Pro Java 6 3D Game Development: Java 3D, JOGL, JInput and JOAL APIs (Expert's Voice in Java)
Web Development & Design Foundations With XHTML (3rd Edition)
TCP/IP Sockets in C#: Practical Guide for Programmers (The Practical Guides)

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Last updated: Sat Oct 11 17:07:14 EDT 2008