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VIDEO GAMES BOOKS

Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Dave Astle. By Course Technology PTR. The regular list price is $49.99. Sells new for $28.32. There are some available for $25.00.
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4 comments about More OpenGL Game Programming.
  1. "More OpenGL Game Programming" takes the basic foundation of "OpenGL Game Programming" and takes it to a professional level. I currently am taking advanced graphics courses in college, and this book has managed to match pound-for-pound the amount of graphics techniques covered in advanced courses. This book is definitely designed with the serious programmer aimed at professional-level work in mind, and it delivers generously.

    The book is structured as a series of articles of varying lengths addressing a large number of advanced topics in graphics. It starts with giving better methods to store and pass data around than in the previous volume, which can be applied to all of the techniques thereafter. A few small articles about mildly interesting topics serve as appetizers to the main course: shaders. The author clearly recognizes the importance of shaders and spends a fitting amount of time discussing them. The examples start out simple and demonstrate practical uses of shaders, making sure the reader comes out of these large chapters with a working knowledge of what shaders are for and how to use them.

    With shaders mastered, the rest of the book dives into a feast of useful graphics techniques and tricks. It effectively covers the various solutions available to common graphical goals and effectively conveys when they can and can't be used, their costs and benefits, and other important information that not only helps implement but also helps the reader decide when to use each technique for the best effect.

    Don't underestimate this book; it is massive as well as meaty. If you are passionate about computer graphics you won't be able to skip a page. If you're a professional, this book is full of valuable reference material and details about implementing the latest innovations in graphics. This book doesn't have a place on my bookshelf; it has a place on my desk.

    That said, the only thing that is badly lacking is the source code. The book does not come with a CD, but rather allows the reader to download source code from the author's website. The included examples are fairly well-constructed, but the code base is incomplete. Most depressingly, the source code for the shader wrapper - which the author uses in most of the code examples for shaders - is not available currently. While having the interface design is nice, it does require that the reader implement it in order to directly copy the code examples from the book, which might feel tedious when one is anxious to actually start messing around with shaders. However don't think that the source code is totally useless; there's a good deal of useful source on the web site to sift through.

    The complaints out of the way I must reiterate that this is the best graphics book I have seen available and was worth not only every penny but more. I strongly recommend "More OpenGL Game Programming" to to student who's looking to take amateur graphics programming to the professional level or the professional looking for a good resource for the latest graphics techniques used in games today.


  2. Some of the stuff in this book is redundant in a sense that language specs and extensions spec are already available online then why put in there.

    Second, I found the explanation more like notes+spec form. Not at all for an newbie person and for an expert it does not offer anything new. As it starts with FBO, RenderTarget, PBOs etc. many things have changed over the period, including GLSL specs.

    Book structure is also quite confusing to me, it starts with some concepts of advance OpenGL(!) and then it is more like ShaderXn series with appendix and last chapeters full of GLSL and ARB specs.

    Buy this book if you know what you are looking for, check appendix first.


  3. This is one of the best books I've ever read about the OpenGL...


  4. I'm rating this 2 stars primarily because of the incomplete nature of the project. It's not just that the code samples won't compile, or are so disorganized as to be nearly worthless. Much more irritating are the constant references to code samples that simply don't exist. Time and again the author(s) refer to sample programs that can be 'downloaded from the books web site'. These programs do not exist. The authors lame explanations for the lack of a CD (cost, etc) lose all credibility when one comes to the realization that the likely reason a CD doesn't exist is because the vast majority of the sample programs referred to in the text don't exist, either. Any hope that new code samples my someday appear on the book site seems futile as well - the site hasn't been updated in a year and a half. One is left with the feeling that this is clearly a project that was shipped when only partially completed. I feel ripped off; taken advantage of.

    On the plus side, portions of the book are well written and informative. It is, in spite of it's shortcomings, one of the better books I've found for explaining a variety of GL techniques commonly used in games. It's a shame it doesn't live up to it's promise; if the authors had been a little more diligent in completing the project before publishing it, it could have been a world-beater. Instead it's just another slightly below average disappointment.

    I also have a real problem with the fact that the author is writing reviews (typically 4 star ratings) for books that his own organisation is involved in publishing. If that isn't a conflict of interest I don't know what is. I feel Amazon compromises their credibility by allowing clearly non-objective 'reviews' to be listed with the books. If the author wants to write a little blurb, thats fine, but don't let them rate products they have a financial interest in.


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Thor Alexander. By Charles River Media. The regular list price is $49.95. Sells new for $30.72. There are some available for $28.98.
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5 comments about Massively Multiplayer Game Development 2 (Game Development).
  1. there is very little detailed technical content in this book -- i mean, if you are a software developer, then a lot of this feels like fluff. i wanted a leg up on coding, and this isn't that book. it does provide a certain high-level overview, but it's not sufficient for "game development." for example, the discussions of server architect are interesting, but largely represent a kind of "we did this and were successful" summaries. if you wanted to move into this field, this book isn't an "open sesame." if you haven't thought much about the field and just want to get a feel for what the issues are, then the text is interesting but expensive.


  2. To the game developer, the theory behind MMOGs can be a mystery. Often it is hit-and-miss and many developers can and do get it wrong. Great games can turn to dust because designers made critical mistakes.
    This book does NOT have all the answers!
    But it does pose a lot of questions and provides learned and thoughtful chapters written by some of the best game people in the business.

    Part one covers design techniques with eleven chapters in game theory.
    Part two explores engineering techniques including automated testing, data collection and analysis and anti cheat mechanisms.
    Part three gets into production techniques with eight chapters covering subjects from project management to providing online support.

    Its become my Bible of MMOG dev.


  3. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS THE SAME REVIEW AS THE SEQUELS BOOK, THAT IS BECAUSE I CONSIDER THEM TO BE EQUALLY AS GOOD AS EACH OTHER.
    DON'T BUY ONE BOOK, GET THEM BOTH.

    As a games programmer I wanted to branch out into a MMG and this book was one of 4 that taught me everything I wanted to know.

    This book is split into 3 main sections; each section has several chapters about differant aspects of the MMP's. If you have any interest in MMP games you cannot help but to find most chapters helpful.
    I will admit that some chapters bored me and I skipped them, but the amount of helpful chapters there were more than made up for it.

    Each chapter has been written by a differant person and quick searches on google makes you realise that these people really do know their particular areas of expertise.

    James


  4. The book is unlike typical computer graphics books that focus mainly at the source code level. Alexander has compiled an impressive set of essays, drawn from game programmers at several companies. It is an industry-wide summation of publicly available ideas for state of the art coding, circa 2005.

    Look, if you are hoping for tips on solving a specific coding problem, this may not be the best choice of books. Instead, the articles are more useful at the architectural design level, for a new multiplayer game. Some topics seem quite novel. Like applying graph theory to study and design a game. Including at the large ["macro"] level where you might be building a community, with economic facets. Graph theory also permits a way to classify different MM games, providing a unified and consistent view. Not the sort of thing you might expect to run into in a gaming text. But the complexities of building a MM world can be staggering.

    There are many more essays, touching on numerous aspects. You need to be an experienced game developer to fully appreciate this book. Which is not to say that the ideas here cannot ultimately find expression at the source code level. Just that you need to take a high level view.


  5. As an experienced online game producer with one reasonably successful title under my belt I really felt that this book offered less in terms of game development knowledge than what can be freely and easily found on the internet.

    The book itself is a collection of essay-length chapters written by different authors regarding various aspects of online game design. I found that the length of these chapters is generally too long for simpler subjects and too short for more complicated topics.

    The authors aren't heavy-hitters from Microsoft, Sony, Blizzard, etc. Not that there aren't some great minds behind some of the articles, but I really felt that the majority of the articles were written by authors that didn't have nearly the amount of knowledge regarding these topics that I would expect. In particular there are a few articles from authors (some whose companies have a less than stellar reputation with their users) that contain some patently bad advice.

    Overall, I'd say the book is hit-and-miss, with more misses than hits. There are a few worthwhile articles, but not enough to justify the cost of this book. You'll get almost as much from reading the chapter list and spending some time thinking about the topics covered as you will from actually reading the chapters.

    I wouldn't recommend this book to a person of any level of experience in online game development. There are far better books on this subject out there.


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Elizabeth Hollinger. By Prima Games. The regular list price is $14.99. Sells new for $99.75. There are some available for $25.00.
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5 comments about Dragon Warrior VII (Prima's Official Strategy Guide).
  1. Indeed, it took me over 100 hours to finish DW7, it was a satisfying game. It was very satisfying, but also frustrating for I got stuck few times here and there. I got really stuck at one point and bought this strategy guide. I expected a full blown walk through with detailed step by step, however, I was left with more frustration because of this strategy guide rather than feeling liberated from the agony of being stuck.

    It doesn't have a WHOLE WORLD MAP, which confused me lot of times, and how to reach certain location was just vague. It would've been a much better strategy guide if they simply put a whole map with arrow pointing at every location with their name-I'm not sure if the writer's intention was for the gamers to figure out the rest of the game with only structured guide, so the gamers can have their own share of 'fun' to figure out the way- and I don't think that's 'funny' or 'justified' when we are talking about a game strategy walk through. Information regarding items, weapons, and armors was insufficient. For instance, if you can only get this weapon from an enemy, it doesn't specify which enemy you would have to fight to get it, or though the whole walk through does show where to get certain items from either treasure box or from a certain event, on the weapon/armor list, it doesn't say anything, doesn't specify specific location.

    If you are looking for something 'barely' enough to proceed with your games, this might work fairly well, however sometimes, that 'barely enough' isn't enough, really.
    I don't know what to say.. unless the price is really reasonable, I wouldn't recommend this strategy guide at all. But again, what are you gonna do when you are really stuck, right? It's a hughes game and I'm sure it might be an impossible job to really create a thorough walk through, however, just basic element and content of any walk through for RPG was missing, thus making it very frustrating. Good Luck.



  2. Wonderful!! A great help. it was organized, a step by step success to defeat the Demon Lord and restore the world of all it's lands free of evil. Every aspect of this strategy is in FULL detail. gives great information on the weaponary, armory, Items and special item showing a pictures and plenty of information, gives an entire beastiary (monster) selection as well giving from Hp to capture rate. tells you almost exactly where every last Shard is and where the pedistals are in the temple to use them. a MUST have to know all the information in this great game


  3. Wonderful!! A great help. it was organized, a step by step success to defeat the Demon Lord and restore the world of all it's lands free of evil. Every aspect of this strategy is in FULL detail. gives great information on the weaponary, armory, Items and special item showing a pictures and plenty of information, gives an entire beastiary (monster) selection as well giving from Hp to capture rate. tells you almost exactly where every last Shard is and where the pedistals are in the temple to use them. a MUST have to know all the information in this great game


  4. While it doesn't look like much, the author packed a crazy amount of useful information in this small book! The job/level system is a little overwhelming at first, and the author sumerized it up nicely in the beginning of the book. I found this great since you don't have to read through the walkthrough section and spoil the story for yourself. When you get stuck, each part of the game has a it's own section in the walkthrough, so it's really easy to find. There are tips-0-plenty throughout the guide as well. Over all, I am very satisfied, and recommend this guide to anyone who wants to get the most out of Dragon Warrior VII.


  5. This book will come in very handy if you buy the game. The game takes between 100-250 hours to beat and is extremely difficult. Without the book it will probably take well over 500 hours to beat it, if you don't give up. My brother is hard-core gaming geek and has well over 200 RPG games. He has only needed a strategy guide and help 3 times and this was one of the games he needed it for. If you can beat the game without it, you are a genius.

    It gives you walkthroughs and maps of most of the levels. It also has a guide in the back of all the monsters you will face and what they drop, etc. Weapons, armour, items, characters, etc. also have their own sections. The only thing I don't like and I really can't fault Prima for it is, is that it does not give "all" the info you need. For example, it tells you that there is a couple of bonus dungeons but, not how to get all the pieces to open them. This may seem small but, I tried for weeks to figure out how to open them. After 3 three weeks I finally found something on the internet how to open them. Another is tiny medals, there are tiny medals in this game to upgrade weapons. You do not really need them but I wanted to try to find all. The prima guide gives you the location for a lot of them but not all. You need to 100 to open the bonus dungeons and if you invest this much time into a game it will make your blood boil if you can't find them. Find that stuff at Dragon's Den on the internet. Other than these small things the guide gives easy explanations how to beat the game, for the most part. BUY IT!


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Dimension Publishing. By Prima Games. The regular list price is $14.99. Sells new for $75.00. There are some available for $29.98.
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5 comments about The Legend of Dragoon: Prima's Official Strategy Guide.
  1. Don't buy this book, unless its the only one you can find. Its not worth the paper its printed on. There is only two good things about this book, it tells you the stardust locations (but doesnt show up a map of where they are, most of my exporing of the towns was trying to find the one house a stardust was in out of 20 houses) and it gives you a decent strategy on how to fight the bosses. Decent as in if you use it youll bet the boss, most of the time.

    The book tells you what items there are to find in a section, but its incomplete and wrong. Most of the time there are at least 2 items i found that werent on the list, and at least 1 item on the list that wasnt in the game in that area.

    The walk through is good if all you want to do is go directly to the boss, but it doesnt take you to the weapon/armor upgrades neccesary to defeat the boss.

    The game is great, this book is pathetic.



  2. I have bought alot of stragey guides and they have always been helpful until this one. It assumes too much and is of little or no help, I find going back to the little booklet that came with the game.


  3. With this book you are almost certain to beat the bosses, Without it you won't find very much Stardust, it tells you where to go, and it even gives you a strategy for the last boss. It would be nice if the book had a few area maps, but that's okay. You will have a lot more fun with this book than without it.


  4. This is the worst walkthrough I've ever read. The sections are incomplete and misinformed. The book gives the same item multiple names. Information is given twice on the same page and one of those times is always wrong. Weapons are not located correctly, if even told were to find them. Prices for weapons and items are wrong, and the enemy section has little information; not telling the HP or skills.


  5. The reason why people buy official strategy guides in the first place is because they need in depth helps.

    This guide book is really brief hardly telling you where key items are and how to defeat bosses and the right team combinations and skills to use.

    Legend of Dragoon is a complicated game and the guide book does not help by briefly describing on the dragoon power, how to boost it up .......

    It could have been better



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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Hamsa Suri and Lakshmi Prayaga. By Course Technology PTR. The regular list price is $29.99. Sells new for $18.79. There are some available for $19.24.
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2 comments about Beginning Game Programming with Flash.
  1. This book offers a wonderful approach. It does a great job of explaining how ActionScript (yes, ActionScript 3.0) works.

    HOWEVER ...

    This book also sports some critical typographical errors. And those typographical errors sometimes occur in tutorials' Flash ActionScript code (yes, the very code that folks buy the book to learn).

    Simply put, if you follow the instructions carefully, some of the tutorials will not work. (At least they didn't for me!)

    Here's an example:

    One of the book's tutorials (p. 32) tells readers to create something and name it "mc_ball1."

    After that, the tutorial does not mention "mc_ball1" again. Instead, the tutorial tells readers to type code for something named "mc_ball" (note the missing "1").

    Okay, a missing "1" might seem like a little thing. But, if a programmer follows the book's written instructions, her project will not work. The code is designed to make to "mc_ball" do something. But there is no "mc_ball." There is an "mc_ball1" -- and it never receives any instructions from the code.

    This book's title states that it is for beginners. Beginners probably do not have the skill to troubleshoot typographical nuances in ActionScript.

    And, unfortunately, there are several of these types of errors in this book.

    So, I'm afraid that the current edition may be of limited value to most beginning Flash programmers. The next -- carefully edited -- version of this book might be great for beginners.

    In the meantime, I'm afraid that this version might frustrate them.


  2. This book is an incredible guide to learning ActionScript 3.0! So far I have only noted one MINOR typo in the code. The rest of the code appears to work flawlessly.

    AS3 is a great new flavor of ActionScript but it can be tricky for those who are new to Flash or just new to 3.0. The projects are a lot of fun! By the time I made it through the book, I understood all the basic piece required to make my own Flash Game.

    I think that this book would be a useful reference for anyone who wants to learn more about using Adobe Flash such as beginning Web designers and animators because it teaches you, in very easy terms, how to control your Flash creations!

    To recap: This book is an excellent source for beginners because it leaves you feeling confident and ready to expand your skills.


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by David Cassidy and Laura Parkinson and BradyGames. By BRADY GAMES. The regular list price is $16.99. Sells new for $16.86. There are some available for $4.99.
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5 comments about Xenosaga Episode II: Jenseits von Gut und Böse Official Strategy Guide (Signature).
  1. I got this strategy guid because I love playing these video games. I could have bought the strategy guide for 16.99 in store, but I bought it cheaper through amazon even with the cost of shipping. I got it in a few days and it was in excellent condition. My hats off to everyone involved in sending my package.


  2. I received the product in under a week after I ordered it. It was received in bubble wrap and is in very good condition; there weren't even any creases on the binding. I would not have expected to find a copy in a bookstore in this great a condition.


  3. I'm not a big fan of stradegy guides. But I sure know what's a good one. This book has alot of tips and good boss stradegies, such as enemy data and HP, type weakness, break zones, etc. However, I feel uncomfortable with the layout of the maps and how the key works. It's a bit confusing. Especially with the location of the items and sometimes I wonder why the GS quests couldn't have been put at the end of each section instead of making me flip all the way back to the book. It's a hassle there because most, if not all new proceedings in the next stage, a couple of new GS campaigns are avalible and it's very annoying to always flip to the back of the book and wondering which GS route you have to do.

    Also, there are confusing instructions making it almost impossible to find out what they're trying to make you do. Those are just one of the two major things that irks me. (It's not that bad but it's still confusing if you skip the key.) All in all, it gets you through the game, has amazingly good heads-up on notes you should keep in mind, and it has a lovely fold out poster. But I think you can get through the game just fine without it, it's just that it gets you through puzzles quicker. I'm one of those people who really hates game puzzles.


  4. The best guides the buy are by Brady Games...they are the most helpful when stuck in a game...they stend to include lots of picures unlike some of the other guides. The signature series look espicially sharp!


  5. I love Xensaga. I just finished the first one and can't wait
    to start on this one. If you like the thinking games, then
    this is for you!


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by v3image. By ArcheBooks Publishing. The regular list price is $24.99. Sells new for $17.54. There are some available for $19.07.
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5 comments about A Beginner's Guide to Second Life version 1.1.
  1. I have been looking for awhile for a good instructional book on Second Life. Since I needed it to be a text book for an introductory college course on Second Life, I ended off looking at everything I could find in the market.

    This is the ONLY book I found that actually gives you a full range of instruction. The official guide is pretty looking but doesn't provide instruction, Tourist guide is about locations and history, play money book is too esoteric, etc. etc.

    I had to write this review....I was so blown away with the overwhelmingly positive feedback I got from my students about A Beginner's Guide to Second Life for course material. That's the first I ever got with a textbook.


  2. This book is not as pretty as some of the other books on Second Life, but it has plenty of useful information for the beginner. It's occasionally a little snarky about newbies, but that's my only complaint. I would have given it 5 stars if the illustrations had been better. I found it well worth the money and still refer to it while my 2 other books on SL are gathering dust.


  3. Second Life is a place where you can acgtually learn.
    There are many real Universities who provide classroom hours,
    lectures, conferences and simposiums.
    It is a place where you can learn how to run business,
    how to construct, design, and build super architectural structures.
    It is a fun place also, to go skydiving or swim in the ocean,
    and it is certainly a great place to make friends.

    In order to be able to be an active happy participant of the Second Life world, you need to learn how to quit bumbing your avatar into corners, not step on each other's feet, not to fall into ocean while flying, and not to accidentally dress into a LAMPSHADE instead of the new clothes you've just gotten...

    A Beginner's Guide to Second Life is a textbook for newbies, an absolute necessity, if you want to improve sooner and lear the basics of how to BE in this amazing environment full of wonders and great opportunities!


  4. The book "A beginner's Guide to Second Life" gives a good introduction on basic topics,
    such as objects texturing and building, Orientation Island, Help
    Island, places where to find items of various kind, how to take
    pictures and movies/snapshots, and so on. Moreover, the book faces
    other interesting topics, such as avatar modification to change its
    aesthetic, land management, and how to get free money -- a suggestion
    that's always useful especially to the beginners.

    A very good point is that this book seems to be more practical than
    the official guide, therefore, it provides lot of useful details that
    are extremely useful for the beginners. Unfortunately, the Linden
    Scripting Language -- a very interesting topic -- is not faced at all.

    For instance, among the topics faced in the book, Telereport is
    explained with a good detail. Moreover, the author clarifies some
    issues with respect to the Telereport itself. Sometimes, in fact, the
    Telereport does not properly work. Therefore, once we have looked up
    for a place P, we might be transported to a different place (useful
    information to avoid unpleasant headache for the newbies). Likewise,
    searching for a pattern does not always produce the desired effect -- looking for "sand box" is different than looking for "sandbox".


  5. The bad news - it's expensive for what you get.
    The good news - it gives you clear and illustrated instructions to get you going. Plus some exercises so you have something to try once you get into the Second Life grid.


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Richard Baker and James Wyatt. By Wizards of the Coast. The regular list price is $32.95. Sells new for $19.17. There are some available for $15.00.
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5 comments about Player's Guide to Faerun (Dungeons & Dragons d20 3.5 Fantasy Roleplaying, Forgotten Realms Accessory).
  1. A USEFULL GUIDE FOR FAERUN PLAYERS

    This book contains 3 specification
    - 3.5 Updates of FR Realms Campign Setting
    - A gathering book from other FR Rule Books
    - Some new addition things

    The most important thing of this book that is care us; it is a gathering guide book from main books of Forgotten Realms. (FR Campaign Setting, Faiths & Pantheons, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun) This Guide takes the important things for players from these 4 books and collects together. It is a Summary of them.

    Player Guide to Faerun includes nearly all things for Forgotten Realms players. The players can find necessary knownlodge for their characters in one book. But if they wants more details and other specific things they should to have ektra books.

    The main reason for to get this book is; The standard Faerun Players may use this book without need the other books. They may take only two book to games; The Players Handbook and Players Guide to Faerun. This may be second main book for them.
    Also, they can create their characters and play after for dont need the FR Campaign Setting.

    It is only few new additon things whose is not other books. So dont think to buy for only new additions.

    If you thing to have minimal number books to play in Forgotten Realms, you should buy only two books; FR Campaign Setting, Player Guide to Faerun. (After to have 3 core rule book of D&D)
    The players who have other FR books, they may also get this book if they want quick summary guide under their hand during their games.

    Includes the Collection of these:
    Races, P.Classes, Skills, Feats, Domains and Spells, Magic Items, Epic Levels.

    This was my fifth FR book, I have had before these books; FR Campaign Setting, Faiths & Pantheons, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, but I want to take this guide also because I want a usefull thin guide for bring it to games. Sometimes it is some difficult to look and find your needs other 4 books, it may took time.

    I recommended this book for Players of Forgotten Realms Players, but not for any DM. It is a Player Guide like name. And I repeat this; it is a summary book for FR players.


  2. I'm always a little leary about buying "Player's Guides" since I'm a DM most of the time, but this one was almost necessary to correct the errors and region system in the original Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (Dungeons & Dragons). Also upgrades spells from the Magic of Faerun! Very cool and worth every penny I spent so far.


  3. This book was well worth the money I spent, it was delivered to me in quick timing, and was in almost perfect sondition.


  4. Player's Guide to Faerun is a very good FR supplement, but it lacks any information on the facts that happened (are going to happen depending on the year your campaign is going on) after the Year of The Rouge Dragons. It focus a lot on the planes other then the material plane and prestige classes, but not much on geography and politics between the realms.


  5. This is a usefull book for those useing the Forgotten Realms as there campaign world. It has info from the main capaign guide and other books to help the players. I also use it for other games when I am looking for races, feats etc.


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Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Eric Klopfer. By The MIT Press. The regular list price is $35.00. Sells new for $27.80. There are some available for $35.00.
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No comments about Augmented Learning: Research and Design of Mobile Educational Games.



Posted in Video Games (Thursday, August 21, 2008)

Written by Andrew Gahan. By Focal Press. Sells new for $49.95.
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3ds Max Modeling for Games: Insider's Guide to Game Character, Vehicle, and Environment Modeling

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Last updated: Thu Aug 21 20:04:34 EDT 2008